Existence - Non Existence are entangled...

Question: Master i find myself in a very strange situation since few days...
no logic is working.. no reasoning...

...I've been asking strange question to myself..
questions like.. 
why was i born in the first place... 
if there is a god or whatever.. 
why wasn't i ask in the first place.. 
what kind of God is that.. 
that who forced birth to me..

and then I realize unless I totally negate all this crap.. 
that there's a god and all that.. i might just go nuts..."

questions like.. why meditate.. why get enlightened...
i mean words are simply loosing its sense to me...
and sometime back i asked myself..what about this man (that's u) .. u love him?

and i replied..  I don't know whether it's love or whatever that's called..
but i feel good to be in a communion with him...
and i give a fuck to any god whereever he s/he may be..
if there has to be any god.. then u r my god.. in the sense.. u cared for me..
so far u have tried to show me the way.. although i don't know where that road leads or takes me to... it's another thing perhaps i am unable to comprehend ur message in totality..

I've never had so much of suicidal thoughts as recently.. but then something tells me.. what's the point even if u die...

Everything is seeming to be senseless to me.. but having no other choice.. i am just trying to live this life.. in the best way i can.. even when i think of suicide... i happen to think of my mom.. that i am the only son.. and if i go.. i know how much they are gonna suffer unnecessarily..

I am sorry for sharing all these zig-zag thoughts master...I just felt to write.. so i jotted them ....


Answer: Beloved Musalam please be a bit more patient with me, because I didn't responded immediately to your thoughts... But most importantly, have more patience and compassion for yourself...
Learn to give more time to your thoughts, so they can mature... I, not having the oppoturnity to share my thoughts with Osho, I used to write them down, so I was relieved from their load or, when they were to much to just be written flat, they were becoming poetry...


Do you remember?  On the 12th Feb 2012 you wrote...


"master since last month a certain silence is pulling me in...."

...and I said: "accept and surrender to it... You're blessed..."

So, at the 16th you come like, "master i find myself in a very strange situation since few days...no logic is working.. no reasoning..."

See?! The mind couldn't afford the silence and became anxious and started philosophising!

..."i've been asking strange question to myself..questions like.. why was i born in the first place... if there is a god or whatever.. why wasn't i ask in the first place.. what kind of God is that.. that who forced birth to me.."
and then I realize unless I totally negate all this crap.. that there's a god and all that.. i might just go nuts..."

Yes, one can get nuts, because all those questions are beyond the reach of the mind... And the trick is that in all those questions TIME is involved, that;s the fucking trick! You see mind creates an virtual enviroment consisting of the concept of time and then tries to fit everything in it! Time is usfull for trivia but not for existential matters...

The mind is trapped by its own cleverness...


In trivia, for our convinience, we can say that something happens and we can see the reason, we can determine the series of events, because they occur in a straight line...

For example, you drink a whole bottle of whisky and then you become utterly drunk...You knew that before hand, but you wished it to happen for some psychological reasons that were hidden in your unconscious... Next day, you have headache and a bad mood and you take a vow that you will stop drinking, but in the evening, forgetting your vow, you take the booz again...

There is cause and effect when one is unconscious... That's how it is called, "The Law of Cause & Effect"... This is the deterministic theory that ruled human history for milennia...

Modern science of the 20th century discovered, that things are more subtle and strange than they appear... Quantum physicists like Heisenberg and Schrödinger undermined the otherwise convenient mindset of the classic era...

In the famous experiment of the "Schrödinger's Cat", ...a cat, along with a flask containing a poison, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not a mixture of alive and dead."


After the cat interating with the quantum system, it should get entangled with it and end up in a state of both dead and alive at the same time, which obviously we never see.

Osho’s experiences with Suicide

 Once I was sitting by the side of the Ganges in Allahabad alone, in a very lonely spot, and I saw a man jump into the river. I thought he must be taking a bath, but then he started shouting, "Help! Save me!"--he was drowning.

I don't believe in saving anybody, but I thought that this is a totally different case. So I jumped in after him and I pulled him out. It was hard, he was a very big and fat fellow, but somehow I brought him out. And he started being very angry with me. He said, "Why did you save me?"

I said, "This is something! You were shouting, `Save me, help me!' I am not a person to save anybody, but there was nobody else here, and I thought that this is a totally different context. But why are you getting angry?"

He said, "I was really going to commit suicide."

"Then," I said, "why did you start shouting, `Save me, help me'? You should have committed suicide--I would not have disturbed you. I was simply sitting silently, I was not interfering with you."

He said, "What to do? I wanted to commit suicide, and with a total decisiveness I had jumped in. But when the cold water touched me, I forgot all that, and when I started drowning and came up, I don't know how, but I started shouting, `Help me, save me!'"

I said, "Don't be worried. Come here."

He said, "What do you mean?"

I said, "You just come close to me." He came. I pushed him back into the water. He went under once and started shouting again, "Save me, help me! What are you doing?"

I said, "Now I am not going to be worried. I did wrong the first time--please forgive me for that time. Now I will simply sit here and see you commit suicide."

He said, "This is not"--and it was difficult to say anything because he was going down and up--"This is not a joke! Just save me. I don't want to commit suicide!"

Somebody else jumped in and saved him. I said, "You are doing something wrong because that fellow wants to commit suicide."

And that fellow said, "No, I have dropped the idea. It is too difficult, I will find some easier way. This going under water and coming up--it is too much for me." transm32

Once it happened a friend of mine was bent upon committing suicide, so everybody was advising him but he wouldn't listen.

His father came running to me and he said, "Now it seems it is beyond us". The father had always been against me but now he thought, "Maybe this is the last resort". So I said, "I am coming."

I went and I listened to the man, and I said, "Perfectly good! I don't feel it is right, but if still you decide to commit suicide I will help you because I'm your friend! If you want to commit suicide, good! I don't feel it is right because if I were in your place I wouldn't commit suicide because it looks foolish! Because a girl has refused you, you want to commit suicide. There are millions of girls and this is not the only woman. Within a month you will forget; you will fall in love again! But if you still think to, it is perfectly good! It is your life!"

The father became very much disturbed. He said, "We have brought you to help him not to do it!"

I said, "Who are you to help him?--because when you gave birth to him you never asked him if he wanted to be born or not. Now why should you ask? If he wants to commit suicide he should be given all freedom."

I took the man to my house. I said, "Come with me. If you are going to commit suicide, let us enjoy. One night be with me because maybe we will meet somewhere, maybe we will never meet again."

So he came with me, and by and by he started thinking, because I was not trying to convince him. I said, "We will put the alarm on and at four o'clock I will drive you to a beautiful place where you can jump into the river...and I can say good-bye too!"

At four o'clock when the alarm went and I started pulling him out of his bed, he said, "Are you my enemy or what? I don't want to commit suicide!"

I said, "This is not right. If you have decided it is perfectly good!"

He said, "But I don't want to commit suicide. Why are you forcing me?"

I said, "I'm not forcing!"

And he has not committed suicide! Now he has a wife and children and he avoids me because whenever he comes to see me I say, "What has happened now? You were thinking that you would never fall in love again; you fell in love again!"

And he says, "In fact I am happy that that woman refused; she was not for me! I would have always been in trouble, her husband is in trouble. And I have found a better woman."

THE SUICIDAL IDEA ARISES BECAUSE OF INTELLIGENCE

Beloved Osho:
Before taking sannyas, I WAS ON THE VERGE OF COMMITTING SUICIDE. Now I am too happy to say, but still I am searching for something I don't know. Osho, after all, what do I want? Please say something.

//Osho://
SANNYAS IS A REAL SUICIDE. You say, "Before taking sannyas, I was on the verge of committing suicide." You have committed it -- and you have committed it on a deeper plane. DESTROYING THE BODY WOULD NOT HAVE HELPED MUCH. You would have been born again in a similar pattern of body, because your mind would have remained the same.

BY COMMITTING SUICIDE, by jumping into a river, or in the ocean, or from a hilltop, YOU CAN DESTROY THE PHYSICAL PART OF YOU. But your physical part is not basic, your mental part is the base. Your mental part carries the blueprint for the physical. Your mind will jump into another womb and will start gathering another physical part. It will be born again.

SUICIDE IS USELESS. I am not against suicide because it is a crime, I am against suicide because it is futile, it is foolish, it is stupid.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO COMMIT SUICIDE, then become a sannyasin. Then you will be destroying the mind, the deep blueprint for your future lives. That's what Buddha said -- become a srotapanna, enter the stream. Rather than jumping from the cliff, rather than jumping into the ocean and dying a physical death, JUMP INTO A BUDDHA AND DIE A SPIRITUAL DEATH. That's what sannyas is all about -- dying in me. It is carrying your own cross.

IF YOU ARE REALLY FED UP WITH YOUR LIFE, then destroy the very possibility of its being repeated again and again -- become a srotapanna. Then you will become a skridagamin; once more you will come. Then you will become an anagamin; no more you will come.

THE ANAGAMIN IS THE ONE WHO HAS COMMITTED REAL SUICIDE; he never comes back. He is really finished with the world, he has closed his accounts with the world. He has now far better ways of being. He does not come into this mess, he does not descend into this darkness, this ugly hell. He goes on soaring higher and higher towards the very source of light.

You say, "Before taking sannyas, I was on the verge of committing suicide."

In fact, ONLY A PERSON WHO IS ON THE VERGE OF SUICIDE CAN BE A REAL SANNYASIN. When you are really fed up with life, bored with it, looking at its ridiculous absurdity, the vicious circle moving round and round and leading nowhere... WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT NOTHING IS HAPPENING IN IT AND YOU ARE UNNECESSARILY SUFFERING -- you are becoming more and more dark, heavy, weighty, you are losing wings; you are becoming more and more like a dead thing... When you see this -- that life is killing you, not making you really alive -- then two doors open: suicide or sannyas.

Let me tell you, in the East, few people commit suicide. In the West, many more people commit suicide. The eastern people think that they are less suicidal, that's why it is so. Western psychologists think that the western mind is more suicidal, that's why it is so. Neither what the eastern people say, nor what western psychoanalysts say is the truth.

The truth is that in the West, sannyas has disappeared, so whenever one is fed up with life, only one alternative is available -- suicide. In the East, sannyas is as much an alternative as suicide. If you count sannyasins and the persons who commit suicide in the East, then the number will come exactly the same. There will be no difference.

SANNYAS IS A TRANSFORMATION OF LIFE; SUICIDE IS AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE. In both the ways, you go beyond. In both the ways, you get rid of this so-called life. But by suicide, it is only a temporary thing -- again you will be back, again and again you will be back.

WITH SANNYAS, THE DOOR OPENS. You may not come back, or, even if you come, you will come in a better way, more aware. Even if you come, you will come to learn something, to mature.

In the East, the whole concept of growth is to grow out of life, to grow beyond life.

SANNYAS IS CREATIVE, SUICIDE IS DESTRUCTIVE. In suicide, you are simply doing something desperate. In sannyas, you are doing something very deliberate to transform your ways, your very style of life. In fact, it is not with life that you are fed up, IT IS WITH YOUR WAY OF LIFE. It is not really with life that you are fed up -- because in fact you don't know what life is -- but with your pattern of life, THE NARROWING THAT YOU HAVE MADE YOUR LIFE, the tunnel-like phenomenon that you have created out of your life, the imprisonment that you created out of your life.

You don't know what life is, YOU KNOW ONLY A TUNNEL THING -- dark, dirty, confining, crushing, crippling, paralyzing -- AND IN THE END YOU SEE THERE IS NOTHING BUT DEATH. So what is the point of being tortured? Why not commit it today? If it is going to happen tomorrow, then why wait for tomorrow? That is the logic of the suicide.

In fact, people who commit suicide are more intelligent than those who never think about it. Only idiots never commit suicide; only idiots are never bored; only idiots never become aware of the futility of their life...

Intelligent people are bound to think sometimes, 'What is the point of it all? Why am I going? For what? Nothing has happened, nothing seems to happen, nothing can be hoped out of it -- the whole thing seems to be hopeless. Then why go on?' THE SUICIDAL IDEA ARISES BECAUSE OF INTELLIGENCE. So, I say, idiots never think about suicide; intelligent people think about suicide.

BUT THOSE WHO ARE REALLY INTELLIGENT -- not moderately intelligent but at the very peak of their intelligence -- THEY THINK OF SANNYAS. Because they think, 'This whole exists. If I am not able to find the meaning of it, maybe it is my style that is not allowing me to find the meaning of it. If I am not capable of being happy, maybe somewhere I have put conditions which don't allow me to be happy. MAYBE THERE IS ANOTHER WAY TO LIVE.' That 'another way to live', that alternative way to live, is what sannyas is.

'Can't I live non-ambitiously? AMBITIOUSLY I HAVE LIVED AND FOUND MISERY COMES, grows more, becomes intense... suffering and suffering and suffering. I have tried ambition; now let me try non-ambition. Let me have a one hundred and eighty degree turn. Let me be converted.'

CONVERSION MEANS A ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY DEGREE TURN, ABOUT-TURN. 'Greed I have tried; now I will try no-greed. Possessiveness I have tried; now I will try sharing. Mind I have tried; now I will try no-mind, meditation. Sex I have tried; now I will try love, compassion.

'I HAVE LIVED IN AN UNNATURAL WAY -- the way the society has forced on me. Now let me try the natural way -- the way of tao, the way of dhamma, the way of rit. I have lived in conflict, struggle, fighting; now let me try surrender, now let me try let-go. I have been trying to go upstream; NOW LET ME TRY GOING DOWNSTREAM, WITH THE STREAM, WHEREVER IT LEADS.' This is what sannyas is.

So, let me repeat. THE MOST STUPID PERSON NEVER THINKS ABOUT SUICIDE. Of course, he cannot even dream about sannyas. He has not that much intelligence to look into the futility of so-called life. In the middle are those intelligent people who become aware that life is futile, but who are not too intelligent to become aware that 'maybe it is just my style, not life itself'. They think of suicide, and they sometimes commit suicide.

Then there are the pinnacles of intelligence -- a Buddha, a Christ, a Lao Tzu, a Zarathustra -- who immediately see the point: 'I AM MISSING BECAUSE MY WAYS ARE WRONG.' And they change their ways. They change their life pattern radically. That radical transformation is sannyas.

I would like to say to you that YOU HAVE REALLY COMMITTED SUICIDE -- and in a better way, in a very intelligent way; the way it should be committed. You have become a sannyasin.

OSHO
The Discipline of Transcendence
Vol 2, Ch #2: Happy for no reason am in Buddha Hall

Sanyas or Disciplehood: The True Suicide

Q: OSHO, I ALWAYS THINK OF COMMITTING SUICIDE, AND WONDER WHAT YOU WOULD SAY ABOUT MY DEATH?

Prashant,

I AM REMINDED OF A BEAUTIFUL ANECDOTE:

The minister, who got himself a little mixed up now and again, was standing over the open casket of the dearly departed, Joe Hall.
"Our friend Joe Hall is not dead," he orated. "Only the shell is here to be buried; the nut has departed."
Why should you think of a suicide? Are you a nut or something?
If you have become a sannyasin (disciple) you have already committed suicide. Sannyas is a suicide - the real one. It is not destroying the body, because destroying the body is not going to help; you will be immediately born again somewhere in some other womb. It will only be renewing the body; it is not real suicide. Sannyas is real suicide, because it destroys the mind, it takes you beyond the mind.And if you are beyond the mind you will not be born again.Why be born again and again? Why go on this vicious circle?

I know you are bored with life. If you are really bored, then meditation is the way, not suicide - because suicide will bring you to the SAME life, maybe an uglier life than you have right now, because suicide will create its own ugliness in you. To commit suicide is such an ungrateful act towards God. He gave you life as an opportunity to grow, and you throw away the opportunity.

And unless you grow, unless you grow and become a Buddha (one who has known himself, the enlightened one), you will be thrown back to life again and again. Million of times it has happened before: it is time you should become aware. Don't miss this opportunity.

Being here with me, learn the real art of suicide. The real art consists not in destroying the body... the body is beautiful, the body has not done any wrong. It is the ugly mind. The body is beautiful, the soul is beautiful, but between the body and the soul there is something which is neither body nor soul. This in-between phenomenon is the mind.

Lusty for Life Commit Suicide

It is the mind that goes on dragging you back to the womb. When you die, if you commit suicide you will be thinking of life. Committing suicide means you are thinking of life. You are bored, fed up with life; you would like a totally different kind of life, that's why you are committing suicide - not that you are really against life. This life you are against. May be you don't want to be the way you are: you would like to be an Alexander, a Napoleon, an Adolph Hitler; maybe you want to be the richest man in the world, and you are not. This life has failed, and you would like to be famous, successful - destroy it!

People commit suicide not because they are really finished with life but because life is not fulfilling their demands. But no life ever fulfills anybody's demands. You will always go on missing something or other: if you have money you may not be beautiful; if you are beautiful you may not be intelligent; if you are intelligent, you may not have money...

People think that those who commit suicide are against life - they are not. They are too lusty for life, they have great lust for life; and because life is not fulfilling their lust,in anger, in despair, they destroy themselves.

Transcending the Mind

Prashant, I will teach you the right way to commit suicide. Not the destruction of the body; the body is a beautiful gift from God; the mind is a conditioning by the society. The soul is a gift, the body is a gift, and sandwiched between the two, the society has played tricks with you: it has created your mind. It gives you ambition,it gives you jealousy, competition, violence,it gives you all kinds of ugly diseases.But this mind can be transcended, this mind can be put aside. This mind is not a must.
I am sitting before you and I say it through my own experience, I say it on my own authority: that mind can be put aside. It is so simple, you just have to know the knack of it.

And remember, whenever I say that I say it on my own authority I am not saying that I say it AUTHORITATIVELY. Those two experiences are totally different. When something is said AUTHORITATIVELY it is a commandment; you have to believe in. If you don't believe in it you will suffer, here or hereafter. The priest speaks with authoritativeness.

A realized man speaks not with authoritativeness but on his own authority - because he KNOWS it. I am not saying follow me, I am not saying believe in me. I am simply stating a fact: that I have known it this way, it has happened to me... it can happen to you.

Life is very precious and the greatest treasure is hidden in it - and that treasure is of becoming a witness...
Transform your life, Prashant, into a quest. Question the values that you have accepted. Question all that you have been brought up to believe in. Question the way you have been lived up to now. Question your mechanicalness, question your robot like existence.

Yes, something drastic has to be done, but it is not suicide. It won't help, it won't change you; you will be back again in another womb somewhere. Millions of stupid couples are making love every moment. Beware! You will be caught in some net somewhere. And you will get only what you deserve, remember; you can't get more than you deserve. You get the womb that is right for you.

And dying in suicide is dying in such anguish, because it is one of the most unnatural things to do, most abnormal things to do. No animals commit suicide, no tree ever commits suicide - only man. Only man can go that insane. Nature knows nothing of suicide; it is man's invention. It is the most ugly act. And when you do something to yourself you cannot hope that you will get a better life. You will die in an ugly state of mind and you will enter an uglier womb.

Upsurge the Quest

But what is the need to commit suicide?Just question: you must have lived in a wrong way, that's why life has not become a song. You must have lived foolishly, stupidly, unintelligent; that's why life has not attained to celebration. You cannot dance with joy with the stars and with the flowers and with the wind and with the rain, because you have lived with wrong kinds of ideas imposed on you by the same kind of people as you are.

It is a perpetual phenomenon; stupidity goes on perpetuating itself. Parents go on giving their stupidity to their children and the children in their turn will hand over their stupidity to THEIR children. This is the heritage. This is called tradition, heritage, culture... great names!

Question all that you have lived without questioning up to now, and your life will have a new intelligence arising in it. Your life will become more sharp...

Ezra Pound is right. And do you know from where he is writing this? From his death-cell! "Out of all this beauty something must come." Ezra Pound in a dark cell, just waiting for death to come, can write such tremendously important sutra: "Out of all this beauty something must come." The birds singing, and the trees, and the flowers.... this infinite universe - is it the place to commit suicide? It is the place to dance, to sing, to celebrate, to love and to be loved.

And if you can love this existence, if you can feel blessed with this existence, I promise you that when you die you will not be coming back again... because you will have learn the lesson. God never sends anybody back to the school if once they have learn their lessons. If you can learn to rejoice, you will be accepted. Doors of higher mysteries will be opened to you. You will be welcomed into the innermost mysteries of life. That's what I call the true art of committing suicide: my name for it is sannyas (disciplehood).

-OSHO, Be Still & Know, Chp#10, Q.3